Posted by Amir on 6/7/2009, 2:35 pm, in reply to "Use of Sources"
41.212.202.97
""For you no evidence from the Bible can be sufficient. Your doctrines don't come from the Bible, so any discussion about Biblical exegesis with you is useless. The reason I presented the exegesis on this passage was to allow you to either accept what what Isaiah really teaches. You brought up Isaiah as an authority to prove that Jesus didn't die. When I provide a proper exegesis for the passage, you had to opportunity to either accept the truth in the passage or to acknowledge that you don't really consider the statement authoritative. That raises the question, if you don't believe the passage, why were you quoting it as an authority?""
That s all i'm asking for.I asked u to provide a quote from Jesus(peace be upon him) where he claims to be God.If u can provide me with one of his sayings then i'll have to accept it.
However what u presented to me earlier cannot be considered as proof because it all comes down to interpretation.A saying from Jesus(peace be upon him) would be the best proof u can provide.
I don t believe Isaiah teaches about resurrection as u claim and i presented enough material to support my claim.
""When I provide a proper exegesis for the passage, you had to opportunity to either accept the truth in the passage or to acknowledge that you don't really consider the statement authoritative.""
What is the truth that i must accept?
That Jesus (peace be upon him) died for our sins?
Or that he was resurrected?
U couldn't prove any of these points and as u know Jesus never claimed that crucifixion was his goal.Neither did he ever ,may it be a single time,claim to be God almighty.How can we then consider him as God when he preached a very different message.This is why u can t find proof of his divinity among his sayings.
"Again, the question comes up, if you don't believe the passage, why did you quote it? I miss your point."
I believe in only part of the Bible as i said before.I also acknoledge that the Bible contains the Word of God almighty though it has been corrupted as mentionned in the Quran and that s my firm belief.
Muslims reject:
1.Passages that talk about something that are in entire opposition to what we know about Allah.
2.Passages that violate the dignity and infallibility of the Prophets of Allah, since the Prophets and Messengers of Allah are the best selected people who ever came to this earth.
3.Passages that violate the essential religious and human values and encourage exclusiveness or call for fanaticism and favoritism of a certain nation at the expense of the entire human race.
4.Passages that exaggerate about gods,Prophets or men.By the same token, verses that give details about the history of a certain nation or certain events should be excluded from being of Divine origin.
5.Contradictory passages that cannot be reconciled and brought together to mean something of real value or essential belief.
6.Passages that clearly bear the human impression and easily point to human intervention.
7.Passages that are in direct opposition to the Qur’an.
""Your misuse of the Bible raises the question about whether it is ever appropriate to quote material which we don't believe as evidence?""
It is obvious that i am not going to quote anything that directly opposes the Quran to prove my point.When there is a passage in the Bible that agrees with the QUran i accept it and hence i quote it because i believe it is true.
"The Koran when properly interpreted probably does not support the level of violence demonstrated in modern Islamic societies, but it needs more. It needs a positive message which will uplift people and their societies. "
The Quran which can be a guide ,can also lead astray if misinterpretated.This is exactly what is happening currently.Yesterday 'a muslim' in Pakistan exploded a bomb INSIDE A MOSQUE.And he calls himself a muslim!SO what does the quran really teaches?
Praying in he mosque and remembering Allah Almighty?
Or exploding a bomb and killing innocent civilians?
"I have yet to discover a compelling explanation demonstrating how imposing those activities on people makes them more spiritually advanced."
The fasting also called 'roza' have a lot of benefits.Though i'm not going to list them all i'll take the most important factors.
The prime reason that Allah asked us to fast in the month of Ramadan is to honour the QUran which was revealed in the same month.To fast is a way of showing how much we respect the Quran.
Secondly,the 'roza' helps the believer to obtain "Taqwa" which means to live in the presence of allah and to fear him when commiting sins.
Hunger deeply weakens the "nafs"(selfish ego) and hence the believer can learn to control his evil desires.Who would have a heart to plunder or kill with an empty stomach?
The believer can break his fast secretly with a single drop of water.After all nobody would notice it but he won t since he knows Allah is watching him.This simple example shows that the believer unvoluntarily developed Taqwa because he now fears to commit any acts which Allah doesn t like because he feels he is in the presence of Allah.
The 'roza' also have various health benefits also.If muslims today had Taqwa then Islam would be much different from what it is.I am not in a position to blame anyone but we all can see with our very eyes what is happening around us.Living constantly in the presence of Allah thats a beginning to understand Islam.
The muslims are also ordered to give money to the poor.This is called "zakaat".Whenever someone fasts he experience hunger and thirst and hence can understand the plight that poor people face evreyday.He would then be more lean to part with his wealth and donate to the poor.
Allah warns the believers that if they do not stop their sinful activities ,its useless to fast.This will have abslutely no spiritual benefits and doing prayers ,even 5 times a day would be like doing yoga.
The prayers when done in congregation creates brotherly love among muslims and develops the spiritual self.
""If Islam is really true, then why must Muslims use circular arguments and erroneous "facts" to support their belief?""
Did i use any of the above?
""Where is the goodness in Islam?""
Islam by definition means submission to Allah almighty.By testifying of the unicity of God and acknowledging that the prophet Muhammad is the messenger of Allah is the basis of our belief.Life is but a short voyage where the muslims makes preparations for the hereafter which will be eternal.In Islam the belongings of others is sacred and one must honour his engagement with Allah.No souls should be hurt and everyone is equal(race,colour,social position) except in righteousness.
Islam is a not only a religion but a way of living.If one were to analyse the life of the prophet Muhammad(SAW) one would be surprised by his overwhelming goodness,generosity and charity.His patience and good humourm,his ever smiling face always inspired trust among the believers.No one experienced so much difficulties as him and he endured it all because of us.Never once did he complain,not even when he lost his son.It is recorded that he carried him on his deathbed crying.Never once did he swear or even raised his voice at others.When he was angry he would just turn his face away.He never lied and was always honest.Even the Jews trusted his honesty even though they did not like him.When he had the power,he did not turn against those who opposed him but instead forgave them with a smile.He refused to take revenge upon those who had pelted him and his companion with rocks to such an extent that his sandals were drained in blood.Instead he forgave them saying he was the blessing of humanity.Despite having wealth,he did not lead a life of luxury but instead gave away all his wealth to the poor and needy.
Anyone who understand the prophet Muhammad(saw) has understood Islam.
Message Thread:
« Back to thread