Posted by Illuminati on 6/6/2009, 10:35 pm, in reply to "Re: Powers Reserved for the Messiah"
75.173.19.161
Amir posted:
Because he was called "son of man" does this mean he was God?Undoubtedly it was a great title of honour but it doesn t mean Jesus is God.
The title "son of man" is a fulfilment of the messianic prophecy in Daniel.
Dan 7:13-14
13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man , coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
NIV
Jesus directly referenced Daniel at His trial.
Matt 26:63-64
63 But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."
64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
NIV
Amir said:
Human or part-human offspring of deities are very common in other religions and mythologies, however. For example in the Epic of Gilgamesh, one of the earliest recorded legends of humanity, Gilgamesh claimed to be of both human and divine descent. Another well-known son of a god and a human is Hercules....Important Note: So as we can see, the "Son of GOD" theory originally comes from pagan Greek....
I absolutely reject your claim that Jesus was influenced by "pagan theology." The Bible confirms that Jesus was thoroughly Jewish. Jesus talked about God, His father, much too frequently to be a mistake. Because God is Jesus' Father, all Christians have the right to claim God as their father also. The fact that God is our Father is one of the most important concepts in the New Testament since it lays the foundation for Christian morality. God our Father loves us unconditionally.
Amir posted:
"Not only did Jesus call Himself the son of man, who would accept worship, but He also practiced what He believed. Jesus accepted worship."
The NT establishes the fact that Jesus is not God, so therefore if the very same book later on says that Jesus is worshipped as a God and accepted it is plain contradiction.
The New Testament strongly supports the Divinity of Jesus. Jesus and His disciples were not inventing a new doctrine. As I have already pointed out, in the messianic prophecy of Daniel, the son of man accepts worship.
Dan 7:13-14
13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man... 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him....
NIV
Amir said:
If u can bring me a verse where Jesus (peace be upon him) says:"I AM GOD AND YOU MUST WORSHIP ME",then i won t have anything to say.
I am skeptical of your claim. I imagine you would have a great deal more to say. You would claim that the Bible is inaccurate.
John 8:54-59
54 Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father , whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
57 "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
NIV
The term "I Am" is taken from the book of Genesis. This passage confirms that the Jehovah in the Old Testament is really Jesus.
Ex 3:13-14
13 Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"
14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
NIV
Amir said:
"Just as Isaiah predicted, Jesus took on Himself other attributes of God. He claimed the right to forgive sins."
Is this absolute proof that Jesus(peace be upon him)is God?
It shows that Jesus possessed attributes which are normally associated with God. Those who were acquainted with the Old Testament recognized the implications of His claim.
Matt 9:2-8
9:2 Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."
3 At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, "This fellow is blaspheming!"
4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins. . . ." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home." 7 And the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.
NIV
Amir posted:
John 8:28
Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"
It doesn't prove that Jesus had any type of Divine Will or authority, but rather it only shows that he had a temporal and limited GOD-given one.It doesn't make Jesus a person with Divine Authority and not just a Prophet with an earthly and temporal GOD-given one when he said the above words.
What Jesus taught is that His actions and His teachings perfectly mirrored the will of His Father. Therefore, when we see Jesus, we also see the Father through Him.
Jesus did claim to be more than an ordinary earth man.
John 3:1-15
3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus,... 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
9 "How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.
10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?... 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
NIV
During His life time, Jesus made extraordinary claims which we would normally dismiss. However He made good on His claims. After His resurrection, He appeared to His disciples and explained the Old Testament prophecies to them.
Both the Old and the New Testament leave us with a mystery. How can God Almighty appear as a man? I don’t claim to know the answer for sure, but the Bible has given us some clues. We know that God almighty can appear as a man if He so desires. We also know from Jesus’ sayings that He had an existence before He was born on this earth. On the other hand, there is no reason to assume that Jesus’ body was also preexistent. This leads to the logical conclusion that it is His spirit which is divine.
This understanding, that it was God’s Spirit within Jesus which made Him divine, might be a clue to Jesus’ divinity. This understanding could explain the following passage, which teaches that Jesus was born “through the Holy Spirit.”
Matt 1:18-21
18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit . 19 Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit . 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
NIV
We know that God’s spirit has been present on this Earth since creation.
Gen 1:1-2
1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
NIV
God can also place His spirit within a person, to provide him/her with special gifts.
Ex 31:1-3
31:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, 2 "See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God , with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts —
NIV
Obviously, if ordinary humans could contain God’s spirit, Jesus also contained God’s spirit. But in Him, His relationship to God’s Spirit was different. God’s Spirit was His by nature, rather than as a later gift. God’s Spirit was Jesus’ Spirit. Jesus’ spirit is divine.
Message Thread:
« Back to thread