Posted by Illuminati on 6/6/2009, 1:14 am, in reply to "Re: Jesus is God 2"
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Amir said:
What u presented above is the Christian translation.I'll now give u the original greek translation in the Septuagint.
The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his stroke. If ye can give an offering for sin, your soul shall see a long-lived seed: the Lord also is pleased to take away from the travail of his soul, to shew him light, and to form him with understanding; to justify the just one who serves many well; and he shall bear their sins. Therefore he shall inherit many, and he shall divide the spoils of the mighty; because his soul was delivered to death: and he was numbered among the transgressors; and he bore the sins of many, and was delivered because of their iniquities. (Isaiah 53:10-12)
The Septuagint is a good Greek translation. Because they spoke Greek, many of the original Christians quoted from it a great deal. However it is a translation. It is not the original language. The modern English translations are based on the original Hebrew Bible transmitted through the Masoretic text. The modern translations are based on sound scholarship. They are not just "Christian" translations. They are as accurate as scholarly possible. Since you don't like the NIV, I will present the same verse from Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible. As you will discover, there is no significant difference in meaning between the NIV and the YLT.
Isa 53:1-54:1
53:1 Who hath given credence to that which we heard? And the arm of Jehovah, On whom hath it been revealed?
2 Yea, he cometh up as a tender plant before Him, And as a root out of a dry land, He hath no form, nor honour, when we observe him, Nor appearance, when we desire him.
3 He is despised, and left of men, A man of pains, and acquainted with sickness, And as one hiding the face from us, He is despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely our sicknesses he hath borne, And our pains — he hath carried them, And we — we have esteemed him plagued, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 And he is pierced for our transgressions, Bruised for our iniquities, The chastisement of our peace [is] on him, And by his bruise there is healing to us.
6 All of us like sheep have wandered, Each to his own way we have turned, And Jehovah hath caused to meet on him, The punishment of us all.
7 It hath been exacted, and he hath answered, And he openeth not his mouth, As a lamb to the slaughter he is brought, And as a sheep before its shearers is dumb, And he openeth not his mouth.
8 By restraint and by judgment he hath been taken, And of his generation who doth meditate, That he hath been cut off from the land of the living? By the transgression of My people he is plagued,
9 And it appointeth with the wicked his grave, And with the rich [are] his high places, Because he hath done no violence, Nor [is] deceit in his mouth.
10 And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick, If his soul doth make an offering for guilt, He seeth seed — he prolongeth days, And the pleasure of Jehovah in his hand doth prosper.
11 Of the labour of his soul he seeth — he is satisfied, Through his knowledge give righteousness Doth the righteous one, My servant, to many, And their iniquities he doth bear.
12 Therefore I give a portion to him among the many, And with the mighty he apportioneth spoil, Because that he exposed to death his soul, And with transgressors he was numbered, And he the sin of many hath borne, And for transgressors he intercedeth.
YLT
Amir said:
From the above we can see that the Christian version contains words which do not appear in the Septuagint.Septuagint Masoretic Text does not have the light of life.These words were inserted by Christians scribes.Strangely,today Christians reject the Septuagint when the New Testament writers used the Greek Septuagint, and the oldest Christian manuscripts are all in Greek.
Once again, it appears that you may have posted factual errors. Anyone who checks will discover that the Masoretic text is not a Christian text, it is the authoritative Jewish text which has been confirmed accurate by the Dead Sea Scrolls. Modern Christians rely on the Masoretic text because it is in the original language. By using the Masoretic text, Christians acknowledge that the Jews have gone to great pains to protect the accuracy of their holy books.
The Jews’ and Christians’ reverence for the Bible is the great divide between Judaism and Christianity on the one hand and modern Islam on the other hand. Although Christians and Jews differ in their interpretation of the Old Testament, Christians never accuse the Jews of deliberately altering their texts. Because Christians and Jews both rely on the same Old Testament, they are legitimate branches from the same spiritual tree. Our differences are in interpretation, not in the Holy Books themselves.
I’m not sure that Islam shares this same tradition of reverence for previous revelation. In these present posts, I’m looking to see what the Koran actually says. The question is whether Mohammad shared the same disdain for the Bible that modern Muslims demonstrate, or whether he respected the Bible. I want to know if Mohammad has been misrepresented by his modern followers, and if he really respected the Bible and acknowledged its truth? If he respected the Bible and acknowledged its truth but held a legitimate different exegesis of the Bible, then originally Islam was a legitimate branch from the same spiritual trunk. On the other hand, if Mohammad, from the beginning, intended to replace legitimate Biblical exegesis with his own works, then he can not be a legitimate successor to the Biblical prophets.
Amir said:
The scholar Ulfat-Aziz-us-Samad says:
“…To demand the price of blood in order to forgive the sins of men is to show a complete lack of mercy, and to punish a man who is not guilty for the sins of others, whether the former is willing or not, is the height of injustice.
Jesus had no foreknowledge of his failure and crucifixion. The Last Supper was a celebration with his closest disciples of his appearance as King and the imminent overthrow of the Roman power (Hyam Maccoby, Revolution in Judea: Jesus and the Jewish Resistance)
"To those Muslims who wish to exalt Mohammad above the Messiah, I ask you.Did Mohammad die for your sins? Is he the one who has made intercession for you so that you can live eternally?"
He is the one who is going to intercede in our favor on the day of judgement.
U can t prove that Jesus(peace be upon him) died for the sins of mankind,so how do u expect me to believe that?
I have already presented the evidence from Isaiah that Jesus died for my sins and for yours.
Your point that it is unfair for one man to die for the sins of another is well taken. On the other hand, it is not unfair for the mighty God to voluntarily take our sins upon Himself and to die for them. If Jesus were anything less, the gospel would be a tragic failure.
Amir said:
The concept that God died for our sins is very illogical.God creates humans who sins ,then God decides to come down in human form and die for our sins when WE are commiting sins?
Why does God has to come down in human form in the first place?
If i create a car,do i have to become a car to know what differentiate between good and bad?
From your perspective, using your understanding about God, I'm sure it is illogical. In both the Old Testament and the New Testament, God has appeared in human for so that we can understand Him better. The fact that God loves us that much, so that He is willing to suffer with us, gives us tremendous insight into His character. Jesus told us that the greatest must be servant of all. By coming in human form, He gave the ultimate example of that very principle.
Amir said:
Here they thought that they saw the face of GOD Almighty when they only saw His Angel. Notice how they were scared that they were going to be doomed.
1 John 4
11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
12 NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN GOD; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
13 We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.
In Abraham's encounter with God, the text is very plain that there were two angels and God Himself. In respect to 1 John 4, it is interesting that you quote that passage to support your argument. We both know that you don't believe a word of what you are quoting!
Actually, Jesus said the same thing in the book of John.
John 1:17-18
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
NIV
The being which Abraham saw, who Moses saw, and who John saw was Jesus! Evidently, Jesus is the being who is called Jehovah in the Old Testament. Jesus is called the mighty god in Isaiah. He is worshiped in Daniel. He is the only being who was worthy to bear our sins, and who could demonstrate God perfectly by word and by example. Christians have not made up these things. Christianity is our attempt to struggle with these paradoxes. Since no one completely understands God's essence, we can not go beyond the revealed word.
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