Posted by Illuminati on 5/23/2009, 9:19 pm, in reply to "Re: God's name"
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Amir said:
It is true that the 21st chapter of John says that an unknown "Disciple whom Jesus loved" testified to these things.But that chapter appears to be a later addendum to the book.The original book appears to end at John 20:30-31.
Regardless of how John 21 was written, it says only that a disciple testified to these things. The book nowhere identifies that this "Disciple Whom Jesus Loved" is John. Further, it doesn't even say this unknown disciple wrote the book, but only that he testifies to it. So we find that an unknown editor most likely added John 21, mentioning that an unknown disciple testified to the original book. This hardly counts as the author of the book identifying himself.
For some reason, you seem to think that it is important that the author place his name on the book. That is not really the case. Many of the books which have a famous name attatched to them are later forgeries. As I pointed out there is ample evidence that the book of John was not such a book. I suspect that the author of John didn't identify himself in the book because he didn't want to be the center of the book. The attention was directed where it was supposed to be, on Jesus.
The early church knew who wrote the book. People now, 2,000 years later, can question their honesty and veracit, but that can be done with any historical record. For instance, can you prove through your personal experience that the Koran has any connection to the individual named Mohammad? If we choose to reject the testimony of the people involved in transmitting historical documents, there is no way to prove anything.
Amir said:
The problem is that the earliest writers appear to be unaware of the existence of the four gospels. How do you explain the strange absence of reference to the four gospels in the early Christian literature?
I'm not sure where you came up with this idea. You need to review the evidence. Although there is considerable evidence against your claims, I will limit myself to quotes from one father, Irenaeus. Iranaeus quotes extensively from the gospels. (AD 120-202).
Chapter 9 quotes from Matthew
- ...For Matthew the apostle-...-declares that John, when preparing the way for Christ, said to those who were boasting of their relationship [to Abraham] according to the flesh, but who had their mind tinged and stuffed with all manner of evil, preaching that repentance which should call them back from their evil doings, said, "O generation of vipers, who hath shown you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruit meet for repentance. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham [to our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."
Chapter 10 - quotes from the Gospels of Mark and Luke
1. Luke also, the follower and disciple of the apostles, referring to Zacharias and Elisabeth, from whom, according to promise, John was born, says: "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless." And again, speaking of Zacharias: "And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course, according to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense;" and he came to sacrifice, "entering into the temple of the Lord."
Chapter 10 - Proofs of the Foregoing, Drawn from the Gospels of Mark and Luke
5. Wherefore also Mark, the interpreter and follower of Peter, does thus commence his Gospel narrative: "The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; as it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send My messenger before Thy face, which shall prepare Thy way. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make the paths straight before our God."
Chapter 11 - Quotes from St. John's Gospel
1. John, the disciple of the Lord, preaches this faith, and seeks, by the proclamation of the Gospel, to remove that error which by Cerinthus had been disseminated among men, and a long time previously by those termed Nicolaitans,...
thus commenced His teaching in the Gospel: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made. What was made was life in Him, and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not."
(from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
Amir said:
As a muslim i believe that one day the beloved prophet Jesus(peace be upon him) will return and destroy the evil and establish the best possible society for us to live in.Undoubtedly then we will follow him.
It is important to listen to Jesus' words recorded in the gospels. Those who reject
those teachings are in danger of being deceived. Jesus predicted that there would be false Christs and prophets before His second coming.
Matt 24:23-28
23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect — if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
NIV
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