Posted by illuminati on 5/19/2009, 12:01 pm, in reply to "Re: God's name"
64.6.35.162
Amir said:
Accorging to wikipedia:
Estimates for the dates when the canonical Gospel accounts were written vary significantly; and the evidence for any of the dates is scanty. Because the earliest surviving complete copies of the Gospels date to the 4th century and because only fragments and quotations exist before that, scholars use higher criticism to propose likely ranges of dates for the original gospel autographs.
As can be seen they are not sure when abu the datings and there is not even total agreement among the scholars themselves.
Here is what the Wickipedia says about the earliest manuscripts:
The earliest manuscript of a New Testament text is a business card sized fragment from the Gospel of John, Rylands Library Papyrus P52, which dates to the first half of the 2nd century. The first complete copies of single New Testament books appear around 200, and the earliest complete copy of the New Testament, the Codex Sinaiticus dates to the 4th century.[26] The following table lists the earliest extant manuscript witnesses for the books of the New Testament.
In the estimate of the first complete gospels, you seem to be off by about two hundred years. Interestingly, for many years "scholars" claimed that the book of John was a later forgery. Now we have a fragment of the book of John which is dated to the early second century, which is within 100 years of Jesus' death. Most scholars still believe that John was the last of the gospels. That means that the gospel of John was written while there were still living eyewitnesses. Indeed, the internal evidence in John shows that it was written by someone who was intimately acquainted with the lay out of Jerusalem before sit was destroyed in AD 70. The other gospels came still earlier while the authors could still interview the eyewitnesses themselves.
Amir said:
Jesus(peace be upon him) said:For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Matthew 12:39)
Jonah was ALIVE IN THE BELLY OF THE HUGE FISH.so how can Jesus(peace be upon him) be DEAD IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH?
And if he wasn t dead then it means he wasn t crucified.
Are you admitting that Jesus was in the grave for three days? If so, then you must also acknowledge that the eyewitnesses who described His crucifixion and His burial were not deceived, they actually witnesses Jesus Himself.
Amir said:
John 14:6-14
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father . 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father . 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."
Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran challenges the Jews and Christians to prove that only their way will lead to Salvation: "And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful." (The Noble Quran, 2:111)"
I just quoted Jesus Himself. I can offer no stronger proof. If you reject His words, then you are acknowledging that you don't believe His recorded teachings. In that case, you have invalidated any claims that there is a connection between your own faith and Jesus. Claiming that you honor a prophet named Jesus, while rejecting His teaching won't work. As a Muslim, you are free to make up anything you wish and attribute it to Jesus, but once you reject the historical records your claims are meaningless since there is no way anyone can verify your claims.
If your position is the same one held by most other Muslims, it appears that modern Islam's claim to be in the tradition of the Jews and of Jesus is inaccurate. If you reject the older writings, there is no objective connection between your faith and the older faiths except for a few superficial similarities. At its core, without the older writings, your religion is entirely different.
This saying is not produced by Christians order to establish their own uniqueness. It was Jesus who said it. My own understanding of this passage is that Jesus is the only way to salvation just as He said. However, I don't believe that everyone must be a Christian to be saved, since Jesus has made the way open to everyone. I suspect that in heaven, many people will discover the identity of their Savior for the first time.
Amir said:
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Matthew 27:46)
It doesn t make sense.If it was really Jesus(peace upon him) on the cross then why would he utter such words??
How can God forsake Jesus(peace be upon him)???
Amir, I'm surprised how quickly you fall into the trap of circular reasoning. If that statement by Jesus is accurate, then obviously the people who recorded it wouldn't have been foolish enough to attribute it to someone entirely different.
Because God had placed our sins on Jesus, as Isaiah said, Jesus suffered the despair which we would have endured without His intervention. However, even though He was carrying our sins, Jesus' statement is not a cry of hopelessness. It is a fragment of Psalms 22. If you go look up Psalms 22, you will find that it ends triumphantly. Amir, I hope you read that Psalm and think about what you are rejecting if you reject the salvation offered by Jesus.
Amir said:
Luke 10
25. On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26. "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27. He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "
28. "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
No where do we see Jesus(peace be upon him) telling the man that he has to believe in trinity to inherit eternal life.
I agree with you. So far as I know, there is no record that Jesus ever used the word "trinity." The doctrine of the "trinity" came from a church council much later. It is their interpretation of what the Bible says. Each person must read and interpret the passages for themselves. Jesus said we must believe Him but He didn't say we have to believe in the doctrine of a trinity.
Amir said:
Jesus (peace be upon him) said: "I am the way and the truth and the life.
If we take the meaning of these words in the same context as Luke 10 then it shows that Jesus(peace be upon him) was talikng about the goodness in you.Hence Believing that Jesus(peace be upon him) died on the cross to purify your sins is not necessary to win Eternal Life.
Amir, perhaps you are correct, perhaps belief in Jesus is not necessary. I know that God loves us unconditionally, so perhaps He will make provision for those who have not had the opportunity to know Jesus. I do disagree with your statement that we are saved because of the goodness within us. None of us are good enough to withstand God's perfect judgment. Do you love your neighbor as much as you love yourself at all times? I know I don't. Indeed, if either of us looks within ourselves for that goodness, we will be assured of failure. The very process of attempting to be good enough to pass the judgment will guarantee that our motivation is selfish and therefore will not pass muster.
Amir said:
John 17:
4. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.
8. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.
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