Posted by Illuminati on 5/15/2009, 5:56 pm, in reply to "Re: Jesus(peace be upon him)"
64.6.35.162
Amir said:
What i am claiming is that muslims were not the first to use the word Allah for God and that indeed the name of God is Allah.
If you are speaking about Arabic speaking people, I agree with you. It is my understanding that "Allah" is a name for God used by both Christians and Muslims to refer to the one true God.
Amir said about a Gnostic gospel:
An ancient text known as the Apocalypse of Peter was discovered and is in the Coptic language but was probably copied off of a Greek original. Scholars date it to the 1st century c.e.Compare it to the time frame of the canonical Gospels which are dated about 4th century.
Amir, I believe you need to do some more research about the state of Biblical textual criticism. Your dates are way off. The Wickipedia is a good place to start.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript
Amir said:
As i mentionned above this would be true only if the Bible and the Quran were in total contradiction ,however this is not the case.
Let me give a rough example to demonstrate the fallacy in your argument. Suppose there is a box of chocholate, with two types of chocholates. One type of chocholate is good but you don't know what it looks like. The other type of chocholate also looks good, but it is poisinous. If you weren't told which group of chocholates is poisinous, would you pick out a chocholate from the box with poisinous chocholates and use it to select similar chocholates from other boxes?
If the Bible really contains lies as you claim, them it is impossible to use the Bible to support the Koran. In that scenario, it is possible that the places in which the Bible agrees with the Koran are the lies, and the place that the Bible disagrees with the Koran are the true statements in the Bible.
I don't think that you or any other Muslim actually supports the Koran from the Bible. It seems that you are much too interested in tearing the Bible down to derive any benefit from it.
I don't know what Mohammad's attitude towards the Bible was. Perhaps he treated it like modern Muslims do. What I do believe is that there is a statement in the Koran which says we are supposed to believe Mohammad because of the earlier holy books, not because Mohammad worked miracles. If Mohammad went around trashing the Bible like modern Muslims do, I don't know how Mohammad could have made that claim. The reason I reject modern Islam is because Islam as practiced by modern Muslims is contrary to the teachings of the Bible. The newer revelation has to be judged by the older revelation, not vs versa.
Amir said:
A Christian, believing in the crucifixion of Jesus, would have a hard time reconciling two of the principles in which he believes, namely: Jesus is God, and Jesus was crucified. A crucified person cannot be God because he is unable to protect himself, let alone be almighty.
A Muslim, on the other hand, does not have such a problem. He believes that Jesus is a prophet and no more. A prophet may be persecuted and crucified, because a prophet is not supposed to be almighty. Although Islam does not have the problem of contradiction, it has solved the problem which it does not have. Jesus was not crucified. God had protected him.
Your argument is exactly why the passion of the Christ is so compelling. Jesus voluntarily let Himself be nailed to the cross.
Please notice that you are not the first one to make the claim that Jesus' death showed weakness.
Mark 15:31-32
31 In the same way the chief priests and the teachers of the law mocked him among themselves. "He saved others," they said, "but he can't save himself ! 32 Let this Christ, this King of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe." Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him.
NIV
Jesus Himself had an entirely different view of the matter.
John 10:14-18
14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
NIV
You said that "A Muslim, on the other hand, does not have such a problem." Amir, for your sake, I wish you had that problem. I don't know how you can stand to live apart from Jesus the good shepherd who loves each of us unconditionally.
Here is what Jesus said:
John 14:6-14
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father . 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father . 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
NIV
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