Posted by Illuminati on 5/12/2009, 11:46 am, in reply to "Re: Can I move Mountains?"
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Amir said:
U didn t use Jesus(Peace be upon him) parables to prove his knowledge as u said but this doesn t change anything.My criticism is based on the fact that u turned his words into parables when u can t follow it,am i right?
Now when Jesus(peace be upon him) was talking about moving mountains he didn't say that they were parables.However only a person with a totally objective mind will take it literally.The point i want to stress out here is that there are some sayings that cannot be taken literally because it would be irrational.Similarly when the prophet Muhammad(SAW) said that the sun prostrates to Allah almighty it is impossible to take it literally because as i said before the sun doesn t have hands or feet.If u think that i am playing games because of this simple deduction then so be it.Furthermore the sahabas understood that it was a methaphorical speech because they didn t asked him for further information.
We do not take as parables whatever is unscientific in the hadith but rather what seems to be logically coherent to be taken as parables.
I’m sorry for the delay in responding, but my mother is still in the hospital. I will try to catch up with the discussion as I can.
I am not objecting to your taking things in your holy books as parables. As a Muslim, that is your prerogative. What is illogical is to take those passages which you believe support your argument literally and then taking those passages which disprove your argument as metaphors. Even then, as a Muslim that is your prerogative. What is wrong is when you ask people not of your faith to accept your methodology. Your "miracles" from your holy books are highly subjective, depending upon how the reader chooses to interpret those passages. Most of the passages are so ambiguous that they can be interpreted entirely differently from how you interpret them.
Also, your "miracles" seem to depend upon some arcane "facts" which Mohammad supposedly couldn't have known in a natural course of living. So far, it seems that none of these "facts" have made any significant contribution to science. In other words, the Koran and the Hadiths do not appear to contain any important scientific ccontent. For example, I have yet to see a Muslim make scientific discoveries by first reading the Koran, getting scientific information from the Koran, and then doing experiments which support those ideas. You never come up with scientific information through a prospective method. What you are depending on for your "miracles" is to read back into the Koran and Hadiths information which science has already discovered. Retrospective insights like you are presenting are highly subjective to researcher bias. As a partisan Muslim, you have every reason to see “miracles” where other people will see nothing special.
Amir said:
I dont remember claiming that the hadiths contain absolute advance scientific information.Go and read the section about the hadith about the sun and see what i really claimed.Threre is one hadith which talks about the sun rising in the west and this is still to be proven but nethertheless it is in accordance with scientific claims about the big crunch and events that would preside.I rather claim that the Quran contains advanced scientific informaton which was far ahead of its time.U have still not provided any unscientific statement form the Quran which according to u, we take as parables
If I understand your point, it is that you are only deriving your "miracles" from the Koran. If so, perhaps I misspoke when I included the Hadiths as a source for your "miracles." It really doesn't matter, since there are also plenty of statements in the Koran which defy science. For instance, the story about the boys and their dog who slept for hundreds of years in a cave defies anything we know about science. Here is one passage from the story.
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YUSUFALI: So they stayed in their Cave three hundred years, and (some) add nine (more)
PICKTHAL: And (it is said) they tarried in their Cave three hundred years and add nine.
SHAKIR: And they remained in their cave three hundred years and (some) add (another) nine.
If you wish to take this literally and call it a miracle, or if you take it as a parable, is irrelevant to our discussion. What is important is that this passage is literally impossible from the present scientific perspective. Since the Koran contains material which is scientifically suspect, it is wrong to make claims that science somehow validates it.
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