Posted by Illuminati on 11/11/2007, 11:27 am, in reply to "Re: Islam vs. Christianity Continued"
216.31.35.77
Although I addressed the fallicies in Amir's arguments, that science supports the validity of the Koran, there is more to be said about the relationship between science and religion. When religious people use science to try to prove their theology, it demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of science and the scientific method. By its very nature religion, at least a religion which includes a God who created the universe, is automatically outside the realm of science. Science is the study of the material universe, physics, and although its findings impact our understanding of God and His creation, science doesn't deal with God directly.
Probably the closest anyone has come to a "scientific" God is the God of the Diests where God initially created the universe and then stepped back and allowed it to follow natural laws without any interference from Him whatsoever. Any religion, such as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, which teaches that God actively intervenes in any way whether with prophets or miracles is automatically outside the realm of science. Science is the study of repeatable, intelligible natural laws which are the exact opposite of miracles which by definition are inexplicable by natural laws. Therefore any believer who claims science proves their religion is correct is displaying profound ignorance of what science means.
Although many scientists believe science can explain everything there that can possibly be known about the universe and discount God's existence entirely, other scientists, such as Sir Isaac Newton, believe that the fact that nature is understandable through reason and observation as demonstrated by science is proof that God exists. In either instance, whether one believes science supports the existence of God or not, neither group proposes that science can in any way be used to prove the existence of miracles. One can argue for the existence of miracles through a process of exclusion, in which one uses our knowledge of science to exclude known natural causes for an event, but once someone makes that leap, they are no longer operating in the realm of science. The true scientist, when confronted with an unexplained event, will begin to look for the natural laws which accompany the event rather than leaping to the conclusion that it was a miracle.
Although science can not prove the existence of a God of miracles, science does have a great deal to say about who God is. As Newton discovered, the fact that God created an orderly universe which is explainable through natural laws shows that God Himself deals with His creation in a rational consistent manner which is discoverable through reason and science. This God of reason and natural laws is the direct opposite of the inscrutable God of Islam.
Science arose within the Judeo-Christian culture because both Jews and most Christians believe God is a God of reason and laws. Christians don't deny God is capable of operating outside the realm of natural laws, but recognize that if God didn't operate through natural laws, He would be unapporachable through reason and experience. Because Christians believe that God Himself created reason, they naturally expect Him to be approachable through reason. Although the Bible contains stories of miraculous events, these events themselves are used to establish the fact that God is a God of laws; and it is faith in God's laws which were the original basis for reason and science. Through faith in God's laws, Christian theology approaches God and His existence through reason and philosophy. Because Christians also believe that God created the universe they naturally expect that nature itself follows laws which have been created by God. It was this belief in God's laws, which governed nature, which led Christians to the discovery of science. Without faith that God is inherently rational and deals with us consistently through natural law, science is impossible. Once Christians began to look for and discover natural laws, some scientists decided the natural laws were self existent and embraced athiesm. However, the possiblity of embracing natural laws as self existent facts would be impossible if Christians had not first discovered their existence through faith in the God of reason and laws.
The reason Sir Isaac Newton believed his physics established God's existence was because Newton had faith in the Christian God, the God of reason and laws. Because he believed in this God of reason and laws, when he discovered that the entire universe was explicable by invariant natural laws he naturally assumed that He had proved God's existence. If on the other hand he had discovered that the universe is random, without any coherent pattern, then he would have been obligated to reject his God of reason and laws.
Although science conirms the Christian belief that God is a God of reason and laws, because science is the study of natural laws, it can not address the validity of miracles. Since science is the study of natural laws, if we define miracles as a violation of natural laws, miracles automatically lie outside the realm of science.
On the other hand it is possible to define miracles as any discernable act of God within creation without necessary violation of natural laws. In other words, it is possible for God to have designed the laws of nature so that He can enter His creation and communicate with us without in any way violating His own laws. Although these miraculous interventions would be compatible with science, they would still lie outside of the realm of science. According to this definition, if God communicates with members of His creation in any way, that is automatically a miracle. Even though these miracles wouldn't be against the principles of science, by their nature as outside of science, it would still be irrational to try to prove these miracles by science.
Because almost all Muslims are profound fundamentalists, the problem science provides for Muslims is much more foundational that that it provides for Christians, even for Christian fundamenalists. While the Christian God is a God of laws and reason, the Muslim God is incomprehensible. Allah deals with his creation, not through natural laws and reason, but through magic and whim. For example, according to Islam, the sun has to ask Allah each day whether it can run its circuit across the sky. When and how the sun runs its course each day is entirely up to the whim of Allah.
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dhar:
The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)
This description of the solar system not only violates specific discoveries of science, that the sun doesn't go anywhere at night but keeps right on illuminating the earth, but at a more basic level violates the foundational assumptions of science in which the sun "rises" and "sets" in a predictable sequence because it is dictated by fixed natural laws. If the sun ever were to appear to move retrograde in the sky, the scientist would expect this event to be based on scientific laws, not on the whims of Allah. For Christians, the violation of natural laws on this scale can only happen at the end of time, when the universe as we know it will be no more. On the other hand, for Muslims, Allah is all magic all the time.
Although many Christians, particularly fundamentalist Christians, also believe God deals with us through magic, they usually do not allow their belief in heavenly magic to replace their equally strong belief in God's natural laws of science. These opposing views sometimes produce inner conflict which can not ever be completely resolved. It is possible that it is this inner conflict which drives many people into athiesm, in which natural laws explain everything, and they don't have to deal with God and magic. But although the conflict between science and magic may be uncomfortable at times, many Christians will probably always believe in the heavenly magic since it adds to their sense of mystery and awe which they find in the universe. However, in contrast to Islam, this belief in magic is a matter of volition on their part and is not mandated by Christian theology. On the other hand, belief in God's laws is inherent in Christian theology and is recognized by most if not all Christians.
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